Ep 29: The Internal Process of Incorporating Inclusive Marketing with Gemma Comley
Shownotes
In this episode, we delve into the importance of inclusivity in workplaces with guest Gemma Comley. We discuss the B-Corp movement and its influence on business values and explore the effects of internal inclusive practices.
Join us as we examine the practical steps businesses can take to incorporate inclusive marketing into their marketing practices.
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Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:07:12
Joyann Boyce
Welcome and welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I'm already laughing. I need to stop.
00:00:07:19 - 00:00:21:16
Joyann Boyce
We have an amazing guest with us this week. We have Gemma Comley. I met Gemma and know Gemma through the Bristol area. And also Gemma was one of the first people to tell me she listens to the podcast and I'm like, Oh my gosh.
00:00:22:24 - 00:00:25:09
Joyann Boyce
There are people actually listening.
00:00:25:11 - 00:00:27:16
Gemma Comley
It was a real fangirl moment for me.
00:00:27:18 - 00:00:34:19
Joyann Boyce
It made me so, I was speaking about this to the team for weeks. I'm like, There are actual humans out there that listen to it.
00:00:34:21 - 00:00:37:24
Gemma Comley
We are listening, we are learning.
00:00:38:01 - 00:00:47:07
Joyann Boyce
Appreciate it so much. But I, when we spoke more, I really wanted to have you on the podcast because of your marketing background, but please share with our listeners who you are and what you do.
00:00:47:09 - 00:01:11:20
Gemma Comley
Um hi, so I'm Gemma Comley. At the moment, I'm head of marketing over at Ghyston. We are a Software Development Company based in Bristol. I have been working in marketing for more years than I care to admit, and I've worked in various different kind of sectors, the finance sector. I've been agency side, lots and lots of different things.
00:01:11:22 - 00:01:33:04
Gemma Comley
And I've really noticed like a change in marketing over the last couple of years. I think when I first started out, marketing was very much organise the events and bring the drinks along, I was quite the, that, that felt like what I was there to do. And now I see it as being a really empowering strategic role to play in a company.
00:01:33:04 - 00:01:58:18
Gemma Comley
I think it's, I think it's really exciting. It love my job and I am quite, I think, quite nervous, I suppose around the subject of inclusive marketing because I desperately want to get it right. And I think the reason why I really fangirled over you when I first met you was I think you were one of the first people that made me feel like it was possible and that it was a very approachable thing to do.
00:01:58:20 - 00:02:10:02
Gemma Comley
So I love, I'm a big fan of your podcast and I've already said I feel like fraud to be on here. I'm here to learn, not to share my expertise.
00:02:10:04 - 00:02:21:07
Joyann Boyce
There’s so many things. Thank you so much for your kind words, but like the journey that you're even going on in marketing and the changes of it, I think this is another level and just hearing.
00:02:22:18 - 00:02:31:03
Joyann Boyce
Because a lot of people are nervous, between the two worlds I shift of marketing and I there's a lot of nervousness.
00:02:31:05 - 00:02:37:06
Gemma Comley
Terrifying. Terrifying worlds. For very different reason.
00:02:37:08 - 00:02:46:05
Joyann Boyce
Different reasons. But I would love to know since learning more about inclusive marketing and venturing into that world, what does it mean to you?
00:02:46:07 - 00:03:06:09
Gemma Comley
So inclusive marketing is about ensuring that your content and the things that you're putting out that is representative of the audience that you're looking to attract. I went to see Caitlin Moran years and years and years ago. And she said to society, when you look at things should get a mirror and you should go to see your self back.
00:03:06:09 - 00:03:34:18
Gemma Comley
And I think that's how I feel about inclusive marketing. It feels like people can see themselves in that. It's a real challenge because I obviously work in tech and that's quite a white, male dominated environment. But I think the confidence that you've given me and it is that it doesn't have to, like every picture you put up to take all the boxes, because I think that's perhaps what inclusive marketing has felt to me in the past.
00:03:34:20 - 00:03:52:11
Gemma Comley
You know, how have we got everybody in this? And, and actually that's makes everyone feel a bit underrepresented, I would imagine, because your message is so lost. So you've given me that real confidence to be clear about who I'm trying to talk to and what I want them to hear.
00:03:52:13 - 00:04:06:15
Joyann Boyce
And doing that in tech as well is such a interesting element because your role shifts. Do you ever do any consulting for the companies that you're building into tech for, or is it just a marketing for your tech agency?
00:04:06:17 - 00:04:26:07
Gemma Comley
Just the marketing for the tech agency. So I'm not too involved in the client stuff, but I know having like a people impact of the projects we build is becoming like a really key focus for us. And so, you know, getting our, talking to our clients about how people are using that, I like how do you want them to feel and things.
00:04:26:07 - 00:04:37:16
Gemma Comley
It's not just like, okay, this is your tech and off you go. It's like, let's talk about like what you're trying to achieve from it. So we are starting to bring those kind of conversations more in.
00:04:37:18 - 00:04:58:10
Joyann Boyce
It's always difficult when you're able to advise and then having to implement internally, but at the same time being consulting or being in the industry where you spend so much of your time highlighting the people you do the work for, it can be difficult when you're like, okay, so how do we talk about ourselves? Like how do we put ourselves out there?
00:04:58:12 - 00:05:06:03
Joyann Boyce
What have been some of the ways that you kind of highlight the work you do? Like what is your approach to marketing of the company?
00:05:06:03 - 00:05:20:20
Gemma Comley
We very much feel like, we want to be part of the conversation. The Bristol Tech sector and that conversation about how we can move things forward and make things great. So a lot of our marketing focuses round, we do quite
00:05:24:12 - 00:05:28:03
Gemma Comley
a lot of roundtables where we get lots of CTOs that come along.
00:05:28:03 - 00:05:51:13
Gemma Comley
They have a nice lunch with us and it's like a conversation we talked a lot about AI last time and how people are implementing that in their businesses. We are heavily involved in the Bristol Tech Festival. We're really very excited about that this year. We've got some huge plans, but again, all things being a collaboration, it's a really it's one of our core values and you see that a lot with our kind of like marketing.
00:05:51:13 - 00:06:01:10
Gemma Comley
We don't just want to be the person that's like this is what you do and this is the right way. It's like a discovery process for, for us, and we like to be part of that conversation.
00:06:01:12 - 00:06:17:02
Joyann Boyce
And that just makes it so much easier. I guess, from your perspective, being able to pull other people in, because then, I've always wondered when you're marketing from an, a company internally, the only kind of people you have to showcase are the people in the business.
00:06:17:07 - 00:06:18:18
Gemma Comley
Yes, totally.
00:06:18:20 - 00:06:31:07
Joyann Boyce
And the business in all, frank and honest ness, Bristol's an amazing place. But for tech, we're taking a time to, like, diversify that talent so you may not have the most representative team.
00:06:31:09 - 00:07:06:10
Gemma Comley
No. And actually, I think we've probably spent more time looking at our internal processes over the last couple of years. It’s a really, back in 2020, it was obviously a big wakeup call with the Black Lives Matter. Black Lives matters movements, for it was a real kind of moment that we all kind of like took stock about what was going on and a group of employees put together a ED&I committee and we looked at some of our processes and stuff internally about what more we could do and marketing fell into that umbrella of different things, things we could look at.
00:07:06:10 - 00:07:28:07
Gemma Comley
We had like four kind of pillars and it's really embarrassing that I might not be able to remember these of the top of my head, but marketing is definitely one, recruitment, our processes and like the community, like our outreach. And that was amazing. We did some really great things with that to the point where actually we've now put ED&I as a strategic focus.
00:07:28:07 - 00:07:46:14
Gemma Comley
So it now sits under Emily, who's our CEO, and this reported like kind of like the top level and we've still got our steering group for ED&I, which is like an employee led and they meet with like Emily once a quarter and they talk through what the plans are and what we want to do more of. So, yeah.
00:07:46:16 - 00:08:21:02
Gemma Comley
So we've, we've looked at ourselves quite a lot internally about what we can do, but things like marketing, we've, we've, we've made a commitment that if we do a panel event that everyone on that has to be it has to be as diverse as we can possibly make it. We can't be just constantly pushing ourselves to like, make it better because it's really easy to have a white male panel like that's like quite an easy thing for a marketing team to put together, but to have diverse experiences, that's one way that we mark the success of how an event has gone.
00:08:21:04 - 00:08:49:01
Joyann Boyce
That's so interesting that you had marketing in the original like 2020 reaction because from I had a lot of brands approach us and they were all just focused on recruitment. They were like, the few that weren't focused on recruitment, were focused on influencer marketing and how to make that inclusive. I would say it's only now people are starting to talk about it having its individual lanes.
00:08:49:03 - 00:09:04:03
Joyann Boyce
So that being part of conversation so early on, what was the thinking? Then and you mentioned that it's changed now to like it sits with your CEO but what we're like the original goals to now for the marketing aspect.
00:09:04:05 - 00:09:25:13
Gemma Comley
So I think at that point we were just looking at generally how inclusive our marketing was. And I suppose we did a lot of like reviewing of things like what, what would be what we saying. And I think that has like twofold. I'm sure the recruitment played a role in it because, you know, we, we recognise that we want a much more diverse team.
00:09:25:13 - 00:09:51:14
Gemma Comley
So you have to show a more diverse team. And I think it's something that we feel passionate about. I think having a female CEO makes a real kind of difference to, like it’s, I guess, already high up our agenda. I suppose we're quite committed to making change in the sector, so I think you can't ignore it. You have to include marketing as part of that sector really.
00:09:51:19 - 00:09:53:05
Joyann Boyce
That is so good.
00:09:53:07 - 00:09:54:24
Gemma Comley
Sorry, part of that discussion, not discussion.
00:09:54:24 - 00:10:19:07
Joyann Boyce
But yeah, early on. Yeah, that is interesting because I normally am the one, when I go into organise the HR stuff and then the only time it tends to cross or I see it crosses that recruitment element when I'm looking at the employer brand and trying to make the employer brand more inclusive to attract more inclusive talent.
00:10:19:09 - 00:10:55:13
Gemma Comley
Which is crazy when you think about it, because I think like your brand, your employer brand and your internal culture pretty much all the same thing to me. You look at the core of it like, I'm not going to put out inclusive marketing messages if it's just not important to us, you know, like if that isn't something that's in the business and something you've talked a lot about on the on the podcast, you know, International Women's Day and these days you just kind of like and pride month and stuff and, you know, like that then becomes like that checkbox activity.
00:10:55:13 - 00:11:18:04
Gemma Comley
I'm not going to paste up about it if we're not actually doing stuff internally to reflect that change. Like, everything I do has to feel really true to me and what the business is doing. And I'm so lucky that everything at Ghyston does feel very true and genuine. So yeah, so I think I think it all needs to be thought of together.
00:11:18:06 - 00:11:36:13
Joyann Boyce
And have that linked relationship. I was curious to know, Ghyston sounds amazing and I know it is because I already know you guys, but have there been any previous roles where you've gone through those kind of hashtag days? Because I know some. I used to have clients back in the day that are like, Oh, today's International Cookie Day post something. And I'm like, What?
00:11:36:15 - 00:11:39:06
Joyann Boyce
Why?
00:11:40:04 - 00:11:43:22
Joyann Boyce
Did you have to go through the checkbox with any past jobs you were working in?
00:11:43:24 - 00:12:10:20
Gemma Comley
I don’t, there's definitely been, I don't think it's been about the days and the social media days. It's probably been more around like imagery and stuff on a website and like trying to set up like false situations, you know, to kind of represent the brand. And I don't know, I feel really mixed on that because, you know, you do have to show it don’t you?
00:12:10:24 - 00:12:16:00
Gemma Comley
Like sometimes again, it just don't feel very genuine. It's like, let's just stick a woman in that leadership team meeting and they’re not there normally, you know that kind of.
00:12:16:00 - 00:12:20:00
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, yeah. The tokenisation
00:12:18:00 - 00:12:31:22
Gemma Comley
Tokenise, that's exactly it. Yeah. And and I think sometimes I'd be the woman that would just be pushed in the room with that make me feel like not great.
00:12:31:24 - 00:12:35:04
Gemma Comley
I'm just here for the photo shoot.
00:12:35:06 - 00:12:42:02
Joyann Boyce
So I, that's so fascinating. I never thought how much that would happen inside a business because it happens to me a lot at conferences, where.
00:12:40:15 - 00:12:44:17
Gemma Comley
Oh, I could imagine.
00:12:40:00 – 00:12:46:00
Joyann Boyce
Photographers will follow me around all that. I just stop posing for them. I'm like, Oh, have you got enough yet?
00:12:49:19 - 00:12:50:12
Gemma Comley
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:50:14 - 00:12:57:06
Joyann Boyce
So they would ask you to come into the corporate meeting and be like, can you sit down and be in this photo?
00:12:57:07 - 00:13:01:11
Gemma Comley
Yeah, that's just kind of balance things out. So yeah.
00:13:01:13 - 00:13:19:01
Joyann Boyce
That's, that's such a weird. Because I do feel, there's two elements like this element of people do that with stock photos as well, where they check a stock photo and then that person does not work in the company, but then they want to be inclusive in a way. And I'm just like.
00:13:19:03 - 00:13:41:06
Gemma Comley
I think it's okay if you're making the moves behind the scenes to make that a permanent change. I think, you know, if your only option is to go for a stock photo in that time, then I personally believe we shouldn’t knock people for making that effort as long as the stuff going on behind the scenes to make that genuine photo the next kind of opportunity.
00:13:41:08 - 00:13:49:10
Gemma Comley
If two years later you're still pulling out the same people, then that's a bit more of a red flag. That this isn't a genuine change.
00:13:49:12 - 00:14:08:18
Joyann Boyce
Theres’ having the stuff to back it. Some of the things in regards to backing it I recommend sometimes is to put their policies public and like, how would you say, especially for a small organisation, how would you say they should show that they're doing the work behind the scenes in their marketing?
00:14:08:20 - 00:14:45:17
Gemma Comley
And I think it's just I mean, for me, marketing is about like opening the curtains to see what's really going on. And I'd say it's about just feeding back and being part of that kind of conversation, really, again, you know, and we are, we do like an E,D&I report that we share internally like every quarter, and I'm talking about how we can make that more of a presence on our website and make that a thing that's like a section because it's some great stuff, kind of like going on.
00:14:45:17 - 00:15:03:04
Gemma Comley
And I think if, you know, on the big the other podcast I like a lot is that How to Fail by Elizabeth Day. And again I think if we all kind of share what's going on and what we're doing, that makes a real difference because sometimes, you know, if you’re just Ghyston you’re sat there on your own and you're like, wow, what can we do this so much to be done to change things.
00:15:03:04 - 00:15:14:12
Gemma Comley
We're quite passionate about making steps in sustainability, but we're not going to solve all these issues on our right, and we need to kind of come together collectively to kind of share our experience asses.
00:15:14:14 - 00:15:15:06
Joyann Boyce
And show it publicly.
00:15:15:10 - 00:15:16:00
Gemma Comley
Did that answer the question sorry?
00:15:16:06 - 00:15:37:07
Joyann Boyce
No, it does. It really does, because it's sharing what you're doing. Even if you don't think it's perfect internally. And I think there's so much aspects on that journey that that level of transparency just makes it show that you do the effort. You mentioned sustainability in that, I couldn’t remember. Are you guys B Corp?
00:15:37:09 - 00:15:38:13
Gemma Comley
No, we're not.
00:15:38:13 - 00:15:58:02
Gemma Comley
be very careful about what I say here. So Ghyston has gone through the process, we're kind of like still going through some of the checks and things. I think I'm quite conscious that again, that isn't just a label that people put on that websites to show that they're doing all these great things.
00:15:58:08 - 00:16:26:17
Gemma Comley
I haven't actually been close enough to the process to be really kind of like clear on what's involved. Sometimes I feel like it's just like a badge that people can wear and I wonder if it's a real kind of like movement. I'm not sure. So I'm not sure. Like, you know, I, I feel that it's something, I feel like you have to be quite perfect to be B-Corp, from my understanding.
00:16:26:19 - 00:16:45:20
Gemma Comley
But, you know, and I think it's that I think there's a place for us all to get something together in Bristol where you don't have to be perfect. Everyone's just making everyone's on the journey and like, making, like, steps towards it, you know, like, but trying our best like to be more sustainable. We're trying to do more around E,D&I.
00:16:45:22 - 00:16:52:00
Gemma Comley
So let's all get together. We can recognise that and we can recognise people moving forward and the things. It’s a journey isn’t it?
00:16:52:00 – 00:16:54:00
Joyann Boyce
Rather than a stamp?
00:16:54:00 - 00:16:56:13
Gemma Comley
Yeah. Rather than this is done.
00:16:56:15 - 00:17:19:19
Joyann Boyce
I think because the reason I'm asked about B-Corp is because I have this weird feeling that I haven't dived into it either. People have suggested it to me, but I'm like, I'm in my lane. I will think about sustainability when I have brain space. I'm sorry. That's just the way the priorities are for for us and our business. But I wonder if marketers have ruined the way I feel about B Corp.
00:17:19:21 - 00:17:25:02
Gemma Comley
Maybe it's the new International Women's Day. I don't know.
00:17:25:08 - 00:17:30:02
Joyann Boyce
I love marketing, its so amazing, but sometimes it does ruin a thing.
00:17:30:04 - 00:17:55:18
Gemma Comley
It does ruin a thing. It well, it changes its meaning, doesn't it? You know, and I do think Pride is like a great example of that, like last, was it July? It wasn't last month, was it? I've lost all track of calendar, but we didn't change our logo this time because I just, I felt like everyone was doing it and it just felt a bit meaningless, you know, just to kind of put this Rainbow logo up.
00:17:55:23 - 00:18:17:06
Gemma Comley
We've done it in previous years. But this year I was just, I'm just, I'm not sure that's the way to show your support behind the you know, what we're trying to achieve. I don't think I'd feel supported as a someone who was looking at Ghyston the brand or potentially someone who might come and work here by just seeing that logo change.
00:18:17:06 - 00:18:19:24
Gemma Comley
I think this like other ways to demonstrate that.
00:18:20:01 - 00:18:32:00
Joyann Boyce
And I think that is a really good marketing choice because it’s laid in your brand values of like, are we doing the change to back it? No. Then we're not going to do a public show of face just for the sake of.
00:18:32:02 - 00:18:49:06
Gemma Comley
Yeah, and it's just got a bit too noisy, hasn't it? So, you know, we did, we did do some great stuff like internally. I was just like I don't think the changing the logo is we just, everyone else is doing it. What are they actually doing to like back it up. And I didn't want people to think that we've just changed.
00:18:49:08 - 00:19:02:24
Gemma Comley
our logo, tick, pride month done. There's other ways for us to show it. We had all the flags in the office. It was like quizzes and stuff. We ran. It's great, great, like internal, kind of like stuff that we were doing.
00:19:03:01 - 00:19:23:17
Joyann Boyce
Focusing on the culture. I do like, I like that. I like that because yeah, sometimes. So my current feeling with B-Corp and Pride and International Women's Day is that they all need a new thing. They need a next kind of re-emphasising the movement and have the marketing supporting it, not leading it.
00:19:23:19 - 00:19:52:10
Gemma Comley
Yes. Yeah. I think it's, and it's great to have these days isn’t it and, and it brings it into focus. And I’m not against that. We had a really great breakfast event for International Women's Day this year. And I think sometimes what we struggle with is what can we do next, like you leave that room full of buzz and you want to go on and achieve great things.
00:19:52:10 - 00:20:12:16
Gemma Comley
But like what? What can we do next? What's the next thing to kind of make that kind of conversation forward and so that's the kind of discussions we've been having internally. What's next? We do great stuff at Bristol Tech Festival on People Day. It really, do a big Shebang about it all, but like what happens next?
00:20:12:18 - 00:20:14:20
Joyann Boyce
What's the next step? What's next action?
00:20:14:22 - 00:20:58:04
Gemma Comley
And I think it's about getting the right people in the room. I could quite easily I'm sure find 100 women to go to an International Women's Day event. In fact we did, I think it was about five men. But, you know, and I think it's about kind of addressing that someone internally, Becky, Becky Burton shout her out. She's done an amazing allies guide on all internal wiki pages that we have and it's like full of information about how you can support underrepresented groups and I think there's something about rolling that out like externally that we can do.
00:20:58:06 - 00:21:05:13
Joyann Boyce
Does all of the comms within the company sit with you. So did you have to approve that before it went internal.
00:21:05:15 - 00:21:33:20
Gemma Comley
No. That came from the committee. Yeah. So, yeah, Becky and Isaac have done an amazing job and they've we have, like, Slack in this chat. I'm probably not giving it the right name. Shout out announcements and stuff over the the speakers internally and they've put in like religious dates, like key events and stuff that kind of like going on.
00:21:33:20 - 00:21:40:20
Gemma Comley
So, you know, and then you can like link back to this page and find out more about it. It's amazing. It's such a great resource.
00:21:40:22 - 00:21:43:10
Joyann Boyce
I love when techies do techie things.
00:21:43:12 - 00:21:46:13
Gemma Comley
I know. It's, it's amazing.
00:21:46:15 - 00:21:50:20
Joyann Boyce
They've linked it. Everything is connected and just like, yeah, it's done.
00:21:50:22 - 00:22:12:00
Gemma Comley
It's just amazing. Yeah, they blow my mind and they’ve, they've used I mean this is a slight tangent, but they've got the AI generated voices now that come out of this like chatbot thing. And it sounds like Jake is telling everyone a pizza's ready in the kitchen.
00:22:12:02 - 00:22:33:02
Joyann Boyce
So you have AI voices announcing all these things. I guess that removes any because it is interesting because when I hear it, I'm thinking if you have to approve these documents, which I'm glad you don't, it's a lot of pressure to put on one person in the company. But then to have it distributed and then I guess to even add the AI on top of it, it makes it more of a
00:22:33:04 - 00:22:36:11
Joyann Boyce
this is just part of our culture. Everyone takes ownership of it.
00:22:36:13 - 00:22:40:17
Gemma Comley
Oh, everyone’s done little bits of it. It's really great.
00:22:41:01 - 00:22:55:11
Joyann Boyce
So you've mentioned, and I don't even if you've noticed this, in your role you’ve put event planning and management in there. I personally wouldn't sit that and I think that's a whole separate role in itself.
00:22:55:13 - 00:22:56:24
Gemma Comley
Yes.
00:22:57:01 - 00:23:17:22
Joyann Boyce
What being the, the lead marketeer and you were the solo marketer in the company but you no longer are. How are you managing all of that and then learning and adding inclusive marketing to it? Because I teach it, I just, I don't have to add it into the company.
00:23:17:24 - 00:23:45:09
Gemma Comley
So I'm not a solo team member anymore so Mia joined back in January and she is genuinely the best thing that's ever happened to me, ever. She is amazing. She's joined the team and she's like absolutely smashing it. I think. I think in terms of Ghyston, I think I've got such a supportive leadership team. I think that makes a real difference.
00:23:45:09 - 00:24:10:02
Gemma Comley
They really care about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, and they support all the, I suppose, extracurricular stuff that kind of goes on. You know, it's not, it's not big corporate kind of machine, where you know, you, you live and die by MQLs like every month and stuff, you know, that kind of like they want to add more value.
00:24:10:04 - 00:24:22:02
Gemma Comley
It's got more value to add. And that's why we see a bit of a point of difference. I suppose you know that we care about the people that we work with and that work with us.
00:24:22:04 - 00:24:29:20
Joyann Boyce
So you don't ever have to like, pitch your ideas to do something new or try to convince they're pretty. Sounds like a pretty on board with most things.
00:24:29:22 - 00:24:58:24
Gemma Comley
Oh, so on board. To a point where it was frightening. I'm like, Oh, this should be really cool and Emily and Rick were like, Yeah, that would be so cool. Let's do it. So I kind of sometimes sense check what I'm saying before I commit to it, because I'm like, can I do this? Yes, let's do it. And I think, yeah, I mean, they're the best group of people ever.
00:24:59:01 - 00:25:00:20
Joyann Boyce
I think that makes a huge difference.
00:25:00:22 - 00:25:02:03
Gemma Comley
It makes a huge difference.
00:25:02:05 - 00:25:25:15
Joyann Boyce
Because when you’re stepping into a new area and it's new for the whole industry in general, having someone, having the team support you in the back end to be like, oh yeah, go ahead, make those changes, do that thing and trust you with it as well. Because I'm guessing if inclusive marketing was new to you in the company, it's new to the whole company.
00:25:25:17 - 00:25:55:20
Gemma Comley
Totally. I suppose it's, it's like a new and an old thing. I think that's how I feel about inclusive marketing. It's not like it's perhaps just more of a consideration, it's more of a strategic thing, but it's, it's a niche. It's issues that people have always cared about. It's not like I've got an education piece there of this is a really important thing to do because of X, Y, Z,. They’re there but already at that point and it's just how we kind of go about doing those things.
00:25:55:20 - 00:26:16:13
Gemma Comley
And you just make mistakes all the time, don’t you? We put together this job pack like last year for our grads and interns, and then we spent ages. We were like looking at the content and looking at the pictures, and the people team have done such an amazing job of trying to make sure the language is like appropriate and appealing across the board.
00:26:16:15 - 00:26:44:10
Gemma Comley
And we looked through last year's one of the like we've talked about E,D&I and then we've just had a picture of white males here and we were like. What did we do that for? So, you know, we got like so in the weeds of it and we didn't notice this like glaring mistake. But it's not, there’s no blame there, it's not like finger pointing and it it's all it's all very supportive of each other.
00:26:44:10 - 00:26:58:13
Joyann Boyce
It's so good that you were able to reflect on what your principles were that year compared to the year before when you put everything together and just kind of it sounds like you just saw it made the change. The whole team agreed and you kept it moving.
00:26:58:15 - 00:27:14:16
Gemma Comley
Oh, totally, totally. You don't dwell on a mistake, but really it's and it's just one of these things just it's just human. And you can just, like, learn from it. I mean, it was a bit cringey actually, when I look it, I'm like, oh, Gemma, what were you thinking?
00:27:14:18 - 00:27:38:04
Joyann Boyce
Trust me, the photos and the context of photos. There's been so many cases where you don't see it until it's in another scenario and you're just like, we've missed stuff as well. I remember we had a client send us something to audit and we labelled out all the big things. And then there was this one tiny was like an illustration of a mouse, with a rasta hat and we’re like why? How did we miss that?
00:27:38:04 - 00:27:49:03
Joyann Boyce
That feels terrible. And saw and was like, no, remove it, remove it now. Anywho. Rasta hats aside, please do not do that in your illustrations, anyone listening.
00:27:49:05 - 00:27:53:21
Gemma Comley
Yeah. Check your pictures.
00:27:53:23 - 00:28:04:02
Joyann Boyce
Has there been anything that you found difficult or you're still exploring to understand in inclusive marketing?
00:28:04:04 - 00:28:31:08
Gemma Comley
I think we're probably pretty good at talking about our culture and making that quite representative. I'm not sure we've got it down with our client stories yet. I think that's something to kind of work on. I think we as I said earlier, we we’re very focused on like I suppose like new business, kind of like coming in and making sure we've got a real mix there in terms of our.
00:28:31:08 - 00:28:37:19
Gemma Comley
Events. But yeah, I think we could probably tell our client stories better.
00:28:37:21 - 00:28:46:13
Joyann Boyce
That's a tricky one because I guess you have no control on who in the team from the client side you're working with.
00:28:46:15 - 00:28:47:16
Gemma Comley
Well, no.
00:28:47:18 - 00:28:49:04
Joyann Boyce
Okay.
00:28:49:06 - 00:29:11:22
Gemma Comley
But there must be a way there must be a way to kind of bring that out. I haven't. I can't say I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it either to be totally frank, but that's one of the kind of long term goals I think of mine, is to try and think of a way to, to tell these stories better.
00:29:11:24 - 00:29:34:24
Joyann Boyce
It is, no, that's definitely a tricky one because the only way I can think would be their values and be highlighting their why they're doing it. But we have this game we play like what would happen if this really terrible person was to use our software and we try and find ways that the would still make their campaign inclusive.
00:29:34:24 - 00:29:42:03
Joyann Boyce
And it's like we could pull on this narrative right here and have that amazing thing, but sometimes it's is such a dive.
00:29:42:05 - 00:30:05:18
Gemma Comley
Yeah, yeah. And, and I think perhaps client stories and case studies, I suppose sometimes you write them for quite a specific purpose. You know, it could be like, you know, like if they go to the sales process, for example, so, you know, this is quite a lot to kind of consider that. But I think that now the team is starting to consider the impact of that of the projects and stuff.
00:30:05:18 - 00:30:16:20
Gemma Comley
We're working on a lot more. I think this perhaps a narrative around there that we can talk about the people behind it, not just C-sharp, you know.
00:30:16:22 - 00:30:21:18
Joyann Boyce
Not just we reduce the lines of code by 83%.
00:30:21:20 - 00:30:40:00
Gemma Comley
Yeah, you know, but we can and I think there's probably more stuff we could do about the users and who's actually using the product at the end and getting some kind of, cause you know, there’s thousands of people using Ghyston’s software. So there's definitely some stories that that we could get hold of.
00:30:40:02 - 00:30:55:04
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, that would be really, from an outside looking in that would be really fascinating to see. Okay, that was a Ghyston project. And then the kind of impact quote unquote report of like how sustainable it was, what people it helps, how accessible it is.
00:30:55:06 - 00:30:56:06
Gemma Comley
Yeah.
00:30:56:08 - 00:31:14:06
Joyann Boyce
That would be really fascinating because a lot of the times I've, I think I've advised some people where if you working in a web development company or you working with a software company and they do mention accessibility, make sure you raise it because it's not, it’s the thing that they constantly get missed or they have to go back and build in afterwards.
00:31:14:08 - 00:31:29:05
Gemma Comley
And that was something that came up from our internal E,D&I committee is raising the profile of accessibility on projects and things. So it's now been written into our proposal docs. Ghyston is such a great group.
00:31:29:05 - 00:31:39:10
Joyann Boyce
That’d really, that’s a really good tip. That's some really, really good. So you have it, when you're quoting for cost and everything is part of it, the accessibility built in to the whole project.
00:31:39:12 - 00:31:53:06
Gemma Comley
Yeah. And it's, I don't exactly know that how they put the proposals and stuff together, but it's that the people impact is now part of how we talk about your project as well so it's kind of getting that narrative right from the beginning.
00:31:53:08 - 00:32:04:12
Joyann Boyce
Mm hmm. And that makes it so much easier because then when the project is wrapped up and you're writing the case study in the thread, the client is not surprised or anything because you've mentioned that to start and you’ll mention it at the end.
00:32:04:14 - 00:32:05:11
Gemma Comley
Yeah.
00:32:05:14 - 00:32:08:14
Joyann Boyce
Cool. Okay, so we're coming to the end of the podcast.
00:32:08:18 - 00:32:09:19
Gemma Comley
Okay.
00:32:09:21 - 00:32:21:19
Joyann Boyce
However, I wanted to do a little fun, fun experiment-ey thing with you where we try and make a campaign or a thing more inclusive.
00:32:21:21 - 00:32:22:16
Gemma Comley
Okay.
00:32:22:18 - 00:32:51:11
Joyann Boyce
So I've been thinking of two things. One to do with your work life. So how could we rebrand, you know, AI and that stuff to make it sound more inclusive? Maybe. And then one because I know you are a mother, any like children products that you're just like why are they, let's do a mini campaign for that. So you have your options of two areas.
00:32:51:18 - 00:32:55:06
Gemma Comley
I think we should do the AI one I've got to say.
00:32:55:08 - 00:32:57:10
Joyann Boyce
Going with AI. Okay.
00:32:57:12 - 00:33:01:24
Gemma Comley
I spent a long summer with my children. I told you.
00:33:02:01 - 00:33:06:07
Joyann Boyce
Was like, you know, they're not in the campaign at all.
00:33:06:09 - 00:33:11:07
Gemma Comley
Yeah, it's for gin.
00:33:11:09 - 00:33:35:19
Joyann Boyce
Oh, okay. So let's say we're doing a campaign for a new AI client that's come in and you guys have built it, and you've got you could make a video at one minute long and you can just say whatever, just to change the narrative and make AI seem more inclusive. What would be the first things you would pull to?
00:33:35:21 - 00:33:59:15
Gemma Comley
I think I'd probably just take it straight from the AI and just really focus on the benefit because let's say the tool we built was something to do with marketing. I'm on it and it's trying to build to me, I don't really care about the tech that goes behind it, you know like that. I want to know how that's going to make my life easier.
00:33:59:19 - 00:34:25:13
Gemma Comley
So I think sometimes if you if you take something, particularly AI, I find it quite intimidating and I feel that and it fits me off, I think, oh, this can be a really technical kind of product. So I would just if I was like rebranding, AI might move away from it. And it's it's just a tool behind what it's doing.
00:34:25:13 - 00:34:30:07
Gemma Comley
Isn't it? I don't know if that's the right answer that you're looking though.
00:34:30:07 - 00:34:42:01
Joyann Boyce
I'm thinking the you said something about life made easy and I was going to go life made easy with AI but then if we remove the I life made easy by and then whatever the random name of the company is.
00:34:42:01 - 00:34:43:06
Gemma Comley
Yeah.
00:34:43:08 - 00:34:46:14
Joyann Boyce
Okay. So you wouldn't even mention it in a commercial. You just be like.
00:34:46:16 - 00:35:20:12
Gemma Comley
Maybe like a little bit the end but it wouldn’t be my beat kind of like message. Yeah, like Chat GBT, great. You know, if, if I was to like do a campaign around that, it would be about stopping that writer's block, you know, like it would, my advert would probably be a marketer that with a blank screen tearing that kind of like hair out and feeling like completely frustrated and then Chat GBT comes and gives you some points that you change and you edit and you go, well, that's terrible.
00:35:20:12 - 00:35:25:06
Gemma Comley
I'd say it that way, and before you know it, you've got a blog post at the end of it.
00:35:25:08 - 00:35:46:17
Joyann Boyce
So I get how we can spin that. I like. So it would be I don't know how you could work in because the one of the tricky ones to work into ads is the representation of like learning neurodiversity or mental health. It's kind of hard to, to blend in without saying it directly, but it could be like for the dyslexic marketeer, making sure you don't start from blank pages.
00:35:46:17 - 00:35:49:12
Gemma Comley
Yes, Yes.
00:35:49:14 - 00:35:53:14
Joyann Boyce
Okay. I like that. And then we can do it for each marketing role, I guess.
00:35:53:16 - 00:36:05:23
Gemma Comley
For Yeah. And people with different challenges like that, you know, like ahead of them, you know, that's just. Yeah, that's how I would kind of started.
00:36:06:00 - 00:36:29:03
Joyann Boyce
I like that. I'm seeing it now. So dyslexic marketing, no the dyslexic copywriter, making sure you don't start from a blank page because everyone could be a copywriter, maybe like ADHD and SEO. I don't know why I'm putting those two together. They feel like I feel like a lot of people who I've met in SEO have ADHD, but I don't know if that correlated in any way.
00:36:29:04 - 00:36:37:09
Gemma Comley
No. Now you mention it I can see that pattern as well.
00: 6:34:00 – 00:36:35:00
Joyann Boyce
You can see it right?
00:36:35:00 - 00:36:37:00
Gemma Comley
Yeah, yeah, I can see it.
00:36:37:11 - 00:36:47:18
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, I could see how it would be empowering marketeers. But then highlighting that, it's like levelling different challenges you have.
00:36:47:21 - 00:36:48:22
Gemma Comley
Yes. Yeah.
00:36:48:24 - 00:37:02:01
Joyann Boyce
With or without neurodiversity. But yeah, it's, it's just that the day to day challenges of making content. I like that campaign. Okay Chat GBT, I'll leave you to get in touch with us.
00:37:02:05 - 00:37:04:17
Gemma Comley
Yes. Yeah, we are available.
00:37:04:19 - 00:37:08:23
Joyann Boyce
We are available. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We know how much you made in the last quarter.
00:37:09:13 - 00:37:11:16
Joyann Boyce
So we will be talking to appropriate prices.
00:37:11:18 - 00:37:35:19
Gemma Comley
Yeah, I think, I think sometimes like the big challenge around the tech industry and diversity is that you feel like you have to be this like super smart, like nerdy person to understand it all and, like, benefit from it. But actually, I think what we're trying to say is that everyone is benefiting from tech, don't be put off by like getting involved or just giving it a go.
00:37:35:21 - 00:37:36:10
Gemma Comley
Mm.
00:37:36:12 - 00:37:58:04
Joyann Boyce
I think there's so much missed in the marketing of tech and the conversation around it where people still think it's all code, they still think and I think there's a lot to do with TV and how it kind of ruined it. Like they think techy people come and sit and there's green screens and no black screen and green right here and this, all ones and zeros.
00:37:58:06 - 00:38:13:21
Gemma Comley
And one of my favourite things about Ghyston is that like, we don't lock the devs away. I think for ages, like you went to a software company and they were like in the basement just coding away, you know, like, they just, they just walk around and you can just talk to them and they talk to clients. It's great.
00:38:13:23 - 00:38:17:08
Joyann Boyce
Oh have you done to meet the devs campaign on Ghyston?
00:38:17:08 - 00:38:23:08
Gemma Comley
We do have a meet the team: faces behind the giant minds.
00:38:23:10 - 00:38:31:06
Joyann Boyce
Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, Oh, that would be amazing. Because yeah, people don't think about the people making the tech. They just see the outcome.
00:38:31:08 - 00:38:47:01
Gemma Comley
Yeah. And giving the devs like a voice. Something that I'm quite interested in getting more out, you know, like hearing what they think and sharing that voice. Because really, that's who we're marketing, isn't it?
00:38:47:03 - 00:38:53:16
Joyann Boyce
Mm hmm. You can definitely do. You can probably all their opinions on the AI. I'm sure it'll be very different in between.
00:38:53:18 - 00:39:02:04
Gemma Comley
Screenshots, the Slack channels. I'm just kidding. I would never do that if any of the devs are listening.
00:39:02:06 - 00:39:03:11
Joyann Boyce
That has not been done. That will not be shared.
00:39:03:11 - 00:39:08:17
Gemma Comley
That Slack channel is still a safe space.
00:39:08:19 - 00:39:19:06
Joyann Boyce
Thank you so much, Gemma. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. Please share with our listeners where they can find you or Ghyston or anywhere on Internet that you'd like them to check you out.
00:39:19:08 - 00:39:32:19
Gemma Comley
Oh, check us out on the linked in. We're on Instagram at Ghyston Software I think is our handle. Oh my god, what awful marketing person I am.
00:39:32:19 - 00:39:38:11
Joyann Boyce
I love the first LinkedIn shout out is true B2B marketeer, LinkedIn.
00:39:38:13 - 00:39:40:18
Gemma Comley
Yeah, LinkedIn. LinkedIn. Yeah.
00:39:40:20 - 00:39:48:19
Joyann Boyce
We'll put those links in the description wherever you're watching or listening. Thank you so much for tuning into the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. Speak to you soon.
